Talk:Vox Populi
How can the Vox Populi be underground if Columbia is in the sky?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 20:07, 2010 September 13. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :It's just a turn-of-phrase meaning "hidden" or not accepted by the ruling party. It doesn't literally mean they live "underground." If you think the phrase is confusing you can change it to something else. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 20:33, September 13, 2010 (UTC) The Vox Populi have new features on them such as Devil masks, Headlights, War Backbacks, Gas Masks. Either this could be their final design or just new AIs. Various versions of the opposing factions??? I was wondering just like the first Bioshock will we have different versions of the Vox Populi and The Founders like the Leadhead Splicers, Nitro Splicers,etc. My guess will be like the recruits will have less armor and weaker weapons and the stronger versions will have heavy armor and stronger guns like the Peppermill, the Barnstormer, the Triple R and the China Broom.AirPatriot1912 (talk) 17:23, January 1, 2013 (UTC) Do they have names? I wonder do the new Vox Populi desings have names (Devil mask Vox, Ski Mask Vox).AmberWing65 (talk) 15:45, February 28, 2013 (UTC) Anti-semitic So, you claim that this proves the Vox are antisemitic: http://guides.gamepressure.com/bioshockinfinite/gfx/word/369735312.jpg Is that the store you were talking about? If so, that is so farfetched, I can't even wrap my head around it. How does this proove that the Vox are antisemitic? It's a vending machine the founders made look like a jew (a mock), and when people of shanty town vandalise that it proves the Vox are antisemitic? That makes no sense at all 06:35, April 10, 2013 (UTC) The claim is not far-fetched at all: look at the graffiti, it's in the same style as the rest of the Vox's vandalism, and there would be no point in the Founders vandalizing the store down there. I don't see what incenses you so much about this. --Willbachbakal (talk) 06:46, April 10, 2013 (UTC) Actually, this also appears in the building for the Fraternal Order of the Raven, in the same vandalized way with the same mocked graffiti. More likely, the store always appeared as this, and was used as stock for the Shantytown. Far-fetched or not, it could just coincidentially be vandalized by someone there who is anti-semetic. Evans0305 (talk) 07:05, April 10, 2013 (UTC) That would be true, except that it's put right in front of the player as they approach the impound. The Order of the Raven don't appear in Shantytown at all, so they can be ruled out. While it's possible that those who vandalized the shop don't belong to the Vox, the city of Columbia is pretty much split between both factions, with very few neutral characters, and most if not all of Shantytown's population is affiliated with the Vox Populi, as shows the general ambience and post-Tear revolution. This is also consistent with many real-life revolutionary groups, who persecuted Jews even while preaching equality for all. TL;DR: It's far more likely that the Vox are responsible for the antisemitic vandalism than anyone else, to the point where the contrary would be special pleading. --Willbachbakal (talk) 09:03, April 10, 2013 (UTC) Sorry for sounding "incensed", that wasn't my intention. However, I still think it's highly far fetched to claim the Vox anti-semitic over that vandalised vending machine. First of all, not everyone in Shanty town is a member of Vox. It could of been literally anyone. Maybe not the Founders (though that is possible as well, because the Impound is so close by and also taking into account the same vandalised object in founders core territory, order of the raven building). If it was really the Vox, they would probably use red paint as well, not black. It's just object placement, decoration, it doesn't mean a lot. The fact that the Vox don't express anything anti-semitic related in the whole game makes your claim even more unlikely. 12:54, April 10, 2013 (UTC) Like I said, affiliation within Columbia is a pretty binary thing: every citizen suffering under the Founders has so far shown sympathy to the Vox, whereas the privileged are all Founders. I don't like repeating myself, but I'll say it again: it is far more likely that the Vox defaced the shop than anyone else, if only because it's in the middle of Vox-owned territory (the impound belongs to the Founders, but none of the Founders live there). The paint might be black (and wouldn't have been very visible if it were red), but the graffiti style is the same as the rest of the Vox Populi's vandalism. Your point on the same building being found in the Order of the Raven actually just reinforces my point: whether in Founders or Vox territory, Jews get universally picked on, as was pretty much the case at that time period. I still think this is special pleading. --Willbachbakal (talk) 23:21, April 10, 2013 (UTC) Not every citizen shows affiliation. Remember that house early in the game, with those people printing posters "Until the negro is equal, none of us are", and they clearly say in their conversation that they don't support what the founders are doing, but they think that Vox are too violent. In other words, they're neither founders nor vox. Many other examples as well. When you get into Fink's factory, you see a black worker killed by the Vox, who most likely didn't support Founders either. etc. etc. Even if it is true what you say about this, that every citizen of Columbia is a member of Vox or Founders, something that is in your eyes "likely" is far from being a fact. We don't have any proof that the Vox are antisemitic, or that they vandalised that vendhing machine, other then your assumptions. And assumptions are something that don't belong on a wiki, where they are presented as facts. 07:34, April 11, 2013 (UTC) :You're not reading what I'm putting forth. What I'm saying is that in the binary political system of Columbia, assuming a third party defaced a shop in exactly the same manner as the Vox, right in the middle of Vox territory is special pleading, i.e. you're attempting to create a special situation just for this case. The examples you put forth don't justify anything on your part either: the couple sheltering black people is split along the divide (the man just wants to change the Founders' policies on race, whereas the woman supports the Vox Populi's actions). The man killed by the Vox was working for Fink, and thus for the Founders. :Regarding my assumptions: to repeat myself again, the graffiti across the shop, along with the location and historical context all point to the Vox. Again, it is far more likely the Vox did it than any third party, and so assuming the latter would be resorting to special pleading. :I have a feeling this debate is going nowhere fast, as I've had to repeat myself twice. I'd cut this short and do the edit myself, but that would be dishonest of me. Is a third party willing to arbiter for us? --Willbachbakal (talk) 12:18, April 11, 2013 (UTC) :Everyone in Finktown (hence the name) is working for Fink. Using that (your) logic, the vandalised vending machine is in Founder territory as well, (Shantytown is Fink's property), which means it's also the Founders doing it (because everyone working for Fink is a founder, as you say). :The assumption is your opinion, it's your assumption. It doesn't make it a fact at all. I still don't see any proof of the vandalism being an action of the Vox, which means it has no place on this article, especially if it's presented as a fact. :And I agree, a third party would be good. 08:02, April 13, 2013 (UTC) ::You're fiddling with semantics. The factory workers in Finkton labor for Fink, but they are not loyal to him. The one who got killed by the Vox was. I've also gone to great lengths to show that this is not my opinion, as I've already explained above. --Willbachbakal (talk) 12:24, April 13, 2013 (UTC) ::I'm just applying your logic to point out how it's not very solid. I still see it as your opinion because I'm not at all convinced that the Vox are antisemitic because a vandalised vending machine, made by Fink to mock jews, was used to decorate Shantytown. It's just not at all convincing. If there was a single event of the Vox being anti-semitic (or racists), then you would have a point. But there is none, zero. 18:48, April 13, 2013 (UTC) ::Alright, I'm done with this. Clearly, you're not even bothering to read my posts properly. You're still intentionally misinterpreting me, and you're running on circular logic (The Vox aren't antisemitic because they haven't committed any hate crimes against Jews, yet any antisemitic persecution cannot be attributed to the Vox because they don't persecute Jews...). I've explained in detail why that act of vandalism points to the Vox, and seeing as nobody has volunteered to arbiter this conversation I'll reinstate the edit myself. If you have any objections, feel free to voice them in this talk page. --Willbachbakal (talk) 23:41, April 14, 2013 (UTC) ::Until a third party intervenes, I edited it to be at least a bit more objective and correct. You're welcome. 16:39, April 16, 2013 (UTC) :::Firstly, it's 'arbitrate', not "arbiter". Secondly, the simple fact of the matter is this: There is no irrefutable evidence that a Vox vandalised the machine, or that they wrote "Yid" on the side of it. To claim that a Vox must have committed this act because 1) it's in 'Vox territory' and 2) it's done in the same manner as other Vox graffiti, is so presumptuous it's hilarious. As the anon has said multiple times, your 'evidence' is circumstantial, at best (falsified, at worst). It may be that it was IG's intentions to project a sense of anti-semitism over the Vox Populii, but unless that is confirmed by them, all this 'evidence' does is prove a single individual, of whom we know neither affiliation or motive, painted a bad word on a box. -- 18:42, April 16, 2013 (UTC) ::::"Arbiter" is also correct, I refer you to this page. It is also equally presumptuous of you to assume the vandalism was the work of a single individual: how are you sure it was just one person? While I do realize that is not the emphasis of your point, I wish to note that you brand my evidence as circumstantial despite not pointing out why. Moreover, why so skeptic? Information on this wiki is added both through observation and through inference. If we have graffiti in Vox territory (and it is Vox territory, it's Finkton) that is identical to that of the Vox, we can infer that it's Vox graffiti. Your logic may work in defending a murder culprit, but not on a wiki. For example, we can infer that Jeremiah Fink copied Songbird's design off of that of a Big Daddy, despite him giving only a vague description of the latter's blueprints. It's on the page, and nobody's challenged that notion. ::::I must also warn you that you both edited the page directly after I tried to conclude this, and are starting an edit war. Please stay on this page, and stay civil. --Willbachbakal (talk) 01:05, April 17, 2013 (UTC)